The topic is not the money, in case you missed it.

There will be a conference AGI-09 in March. They have made "call for papers".
I offered to make a submission/presentation about the SAI Seed architecture.
They do not want it.

Why? 
They do the conference for themself - it is a sham to make fuss and publish crap that they are doing, with money that they have swindled under pretext of doing AGI research/development. 

For what purpose?
To swindle more money yet for the crap that they are doing under pretext of doing AGI research/development. 

What will be the result?
If swindlers will continue to be successful in not allowing others than themself being heard and published, no SAI will be forthcoming ever, since they are impotent.

So, the stinky swine is playing catch 22 game on outsiders.

:)
eS
Sure.
And Quantum Computers will save you.
And you will be made smart by nanorobots in your brain - not to say that you are not smart enough now.
And miltiword, which if present would have to be of uncountable cardinality - is the reality and not ignorant bambling. 
And matter will turn into computorium.
And SAI will be idiotic enough to care to reproduce your and mine stupidity.

Those are things and alike deserve to be heard. 

Obviously, I am not clsssy enough to listen to.
It might disturb the monkey business of swine, God forbid.

 :)
eS

I do not have chrystal ball.
People mostly are full of conceit or incapable.
The culture like this is not conducive to great projects.
I do not expect any future role for myself, with my declining mind powers and such, and my nonexistent influence.

It is up to someone with those necessary qualities, to use and grow this seed from where I have left it forward.

C, 

It is called The Seed by no coincidence. 
Seed needs a fertile ground. As in the seed parable: 
"A farmer went out to sow his seed. Some fell along the path, and the birds come around and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, and it sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up the plants were scorched and they withered, as they had no root. Other seed fell among the thorns, which grew up and chocked the plants. Still other seed fell on the good soil, and produced a crop - some hundred, some sixty or thirty times what was sown. He, who has ears, let him hear." 

:) 

eS 
Now that anyone can have the advantage of SAI Seed, is not the development an easy go?


With money and brains, people have a lot of attractive choices...

Remember, I was offering to do SAI myself, and was not able to generate any interest. 

So there is puzzle here, that I am not able to solve and question that I am not able to answer :)

eS


eldras,

the SAI application is safe and fully tested at XP, it is not going to screw up anything.

The VC++ project contains no executives, so you are safe there too.

If your VC++ installation works and produces safe executives with your projects, this project has no problems and will create safe executible.

My installation: Visual Studio 2005, with Microsoft SDK for Windows v6.0

With different installation, the project might need some porting.

As I understand, you are not a C++ programmer. Team up with someone who are, they will be able to help you out.


eS

@@@ What remains is the manial labor  @@@

True that the work from this point on can be done in manageably small steps, done by many people.

It is not literally "manial labor" however.
It requires philosophical insight in many issues, some of them spelled only cursory in the Seed.

Most of such troubles can be expected to be successfully overcome, but what kind of SAI will emerge depends on spirit and intent that lead that development.

eS


The SAI Seed has been released!


Creation of Artificial Super Intelligence is on the to do list of humanity for a number of decades. 
The goal has been elusive, and actually could not even be well enough defined, although a number of particular algorithms where suggested and implemented, including general problem solvers.  

The hard development problem arises due to the fact that Intelligence requires automatic continuous and synergetic application of large number of algorithms. In such setting, the slowest components of a system become bottlenecks of processing. Which is also true about the development effort itself, where the inevitable redesign and reintegration bring things to a scratching halt.

The solution that is offered by SAI SEED approach, integrates the design, development, implementation, functioning and management of SAI in one application.

The Super AI developmant work from this point on can be done using SAI Seed in manageably small steps, by many developers in parallel.

It is not literally "manial labor" however.
It requires philosophical insight in many issues, some of them spelled only cursory in the Seed.

The SAI Seed can be downloaded from[url=http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm]SAI_SEED download page[/url]


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/4710435.html

Check out the newly released SAI Seed application.



You can grow your own SAI from the seed!
Download site:
http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm



SIZE="4"]Check out the newly released SAI Seed application.

You can grow your own SAI from the Seed!

Download the Seed from site:

[url]http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm[/url][/SIZE]



Hello, Christopher,

How is the political realm of yours?

Although you probably do not have much time tor the AI, and the fact that what you are doing is on the higher level, wanted to let you know that I have developed and released SAI Seed application.
It implements an integrated concept of AI development,
and can be downloaded free at 
[url]http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm[/url]

the idea is to create Web version of it, and let people from everywhere to participate in growing of the Seed.

Very best wishies,

es



It is not risky at all.
I have done it, there is no viruses or such.
Those are self-extracting WinZip archieves.

If you really, really cautious, you can save the file instead of running it.

Then you open it with WinZip, and extract stuff in WinZip.
You need to have WinZip for that, of course.

ES


C,

You have touched actually on several key issues here.

The Seed is a document development environment, that is extremely, laughably easy to use, and extremely powerful.

Every school pupil can enormously benefit using it for his homework, any writer can enormously benefit using it for his writing...

So, one line forward on is to propagate and polish the Seed for that purpose.

I did try some avenues of spreading the word, but this result of AI research, this particular benefit for everyone, must be impressive.

You know that I am not of so great opinion about great names, so :)

eS

C,

You have touched actually on several key issues here.

The Seed is a document development environment, that is extremely, laughably easy to use, and extremely powerful.

Every school pupil can enormously benefit using it for his homework, any writer can enormously benefit using it for his writing...

So, one line forward on is to propagate and polish the Seed for that purpose.

I did try some avenues of spreading the word, but this result of AI research, this particular benefit for everyone, must be impressive.

You know that I am not of so great opinion about great names, so :)


Anyway, it is possible to make tonns of money on this. 

A good programmer could make a commercial version of the thing in less than a month, and sell it as a back to school item this year!

Microsoft could make an advanced commercial version of the thing in less than a month, with spell checking and such, and sell it as a back to school item this year!

eS


I guess, you will still be studying the code, when every schoolboy and girl will use this AI-born stuff for their homework.

I am not a GUI programmer, and not in the shape to become one on the fly. It is one month for the right person :)


eS

K-brain, 

You can get the zip file from this link:

http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_PROJECT_EXE.zip

Then you should be able to use gzip or something to unzip it.

It would make a lot of porting if you want to run it as Unix application.

I suggest, that it is better using of your effort to port it over as Web application. That would allow eventually for cooperative future development online, which is actual intent behind the SAI Seed.
eS

I am not sure what you are suggesting.

The SAI Seed is a design editing environment, that accesses and organizes multiple files that represent a large project.

The actual content of the project it SAI development.

Now, to what extent PDF can be competitive in that?



The SAI Seed approach to the development of Strong AI must be ported to the Web, as a next step of growing of the "SAI SEED", as published at http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm .

Creation of Artificial Strong Intelligence is on the to do list of humanity for a number of decades. The goal has been elusive, although a number of particular algorithms where suggested and implemented, including general problem solvers.  

The hard development problem arises due to the fact that Intelligence requires automatic continuous and synergetic application of large number of algorithms. In such setting, the slowest components of a system become bottlenecks of processing. Which is also true about the development effort itself, where the inevitable redesign and reintegration bring things to a scratching halt.

The solution that is offered by SAI SEED approach, integrates the design, development, implementation, functioning and management of SAI in one application.

Starting as SAI Seed, it can be grown cooperatively into the fully functional SAI in a way that allows for efficient design-redesign, and integration-reintegration.

 


The standard NASA drivel was that Mars is too cold, and dry, and sterilized by ultraviolet to be able to support life. 

Now they are going to change that , and replace it with another lie that they seem to be convenient. 

In another hundred years they admit that I was right all along about Civilization on Mars: 

marslife.us... 


 
S Cloud,

Self-documenting project means here, that the documents are part of the project on equal with code.

If you would run the Install, and then run the application, it would allow you to explore all levels of its documentation, and to expand the documentation if needed, thus expanding the project.

Again, the idea is that project development is being done mostly through expanding of its documentation.

The code of the seed version itself is not much documented, except for its functionality.

The excuse being that this core seed code is not intended to be extended/modified by any application (AI) programmers, but by real seed guru, who reads the code itself and matches it directly to the functionality.
Considering that this core code was developed by myself alone, hopefully I might be excused for not documenting code more than was necessary for myself :)
Apparently, that must be enough for anybody who is qualified to develop successfully that core stuff.

eS


All this fuss about being afraid of running the code, just proves to me that The SAI Seed represents genuenly new paradigm is software development.
What is it about that wish to understand the code before running it? It is ridiculous even in the current framework. Who has ever seen any of the Windows code, as every PC running Windows?
You do not get the documentation of the program in my new paradigm before you run it. Whereus when you run the program you get full documentation of it.  The SAI Seed is an operating system plus IDE. 
If you do not accept this new paradigm, this is your problem, you just have to continue doing things old way. 

:)

eS
 
eldras,

I have asked the WinZip, they have said that Vista is not a problem.
Consider this possibility, which is quite real.
It might be impossible to download correctly this staff outside the US.
Ones, when I have developed the MARSGEOMETRY program and offered it for free, someone fron Austria asked me for it, and I have send thing to him as email attachment.
However, the attachment has been removed by email system.

So here it is, for what it is worth.

eS


The SAI Seed is an operating system, plus IDE, plus SAI project inside that IDE.
It is not what is known as "Seed AI", which is a term for fuctioning general AI, which can be educated and is supposed to self-improve.

eS

C, :)

The geniuses think that I am the most stupid of all hackers. 
To publish under own name my malicious software, which is being crime quite severely prosecuted - that would be something!
Such a feat was never heard of before ;)

I am glad they are do not run the thing.
And after proving their worth in such a way, they turn around and teach others how to live.


ES

It is not Windows Forms program, it is native Windows program. But let us not be neatpicking.
Now the claim about being able to provide the functionality in few minutes - I would like to take up anybody on that, and to see comparable opplication correctly working in five days or month.
What and how it is related to AI question - just an another example of not understanding what SAI is and how it must be mapped into software.

eS

@@Letting the user himself organize relations between objects and writing text description to each object is not AI, sorry!@@
Yes it is AI, if the code itself creates those objects and relations, and descriptions.
User-developer is allowed create them too, and on the initial seed stage only developer can create those objects and links.
But eventually, after growth through efforts of developers, it is the SAI itself who operates by creating, changing, and removing objects.
What you see is your interface to the internals of SAI, that is essentially a constant of the system as it is being developed and is eventually operating.
:)

eS

He shows some level understanding of what he sees, but still does not see the forest behind the trees. 
Watch my response to him.
This object managent system _is_ The SAI Seed, as it is facilitates its self-management, as well as its management by developer.

eS

PB,
what is the exchange rate?
Although I have released stuff for free, and answer the question and criticism here for free.
So I have nothing to lose in this deal.
:)
eS

Eldras, there is no need to apologize to the dimwits for your insight. 
There always are naysayers with technical half-knowledge, we actually are drowning in their complacent greedy lust of power, their lies and their pseudoscience.
Despise them, they well deserve that.
eS

how little you are aware, that the objects, their relations and behavior - is all that there is to every system that can be. 



I have released the SAI Seed application, that is ready to grow into computer Super Intelligence.

It can be downloaded from 
[URL="http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm"]SAI Seed download page[/URL]

In addition to providing for the SAI growth, The Seed integrates diverse functionality that is being provided now by a number of commercial software products, which are being sold for thousands $$ 

So do not expect IBM, Microsoft, etc., to release their improved version of SAI Seed, as the money speak.

How do you like the Seed?
Any suggestions how to arrange funding for such vital project?

eS



Thanks, dx,

I needed some entertainment for sure. 
Meanwhile I had developed and released the SAI Seed, that can be grown into Super AI.
A robot with Super Human Mind will be hard to beat  :P 
Are you a software develper? I recall that Horton is. 
Anyone can accessthe Seed and start growing it - at <a href="http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm">SAI Seed download</a>
eS

dx, 
SAI Seed is a seed of Super Strong Artificial Intelligence. It is a minimal application 
that provides means and support for extension of itself 
into Artificial Intelligence of unlimited strength. 
eS

The really advanced SAI will contribute enormously to the perfection of the world. 
However there are dangers associated with underdeveloped SAI or malformed SAI. 


[quote=ES]@@ The really advanced SAI will contribute enormously to the perfection of the world. @@
The world will never be 'perfect', or even 'more perfect'[/quote]
This on a good Philosophy level :)
Do you think that perfection of the World is constant, or declining, or doing what?
eS


S Cloud,

I do not seek financing at theis point.
I have done my part, for free.
Whoever is capable to understand and use the Seed, preferably grow it - is welcome to do it.
I have tried to get financing, but failed. But is might be blessing in disguise. 
You have not shown ability to evaluate this work properly, so your opinioun does not really count.
You clearly do not have sw development and/or investing experience - so what the whole fuss is about?
eS


Harward,

What you are saying makes sense, absolutely.

It has really taken many years to arrive at some of the ideas. 
The thing is that there are two possibilities:

(1) I have not come up with workable solution after all, or with workable but trivial solution.
(2) The solution is workable and sufficiently new

I think that (2) is correct.

What I bring in, in my opinion:

(a) new software development methodology, that  allows to speed up the development of complex systems, as it lets to proceed with different stages of development of different components in parallel.
(b) new unerstanding of the architecture of thinking employed by humans.
(c) a general way to implement human like thinking in the software
(d) The actual seed that implements the methodology and architecture and can be used as a tool of farther development of itself.
(e) ++

The Seed was released, that cannot be reversed even if we wanted to.
However, this situation calls for business upproach rather than precludes it.
Whoever decides to entertain a venture based on my work, might have more competition, but the necessary work ahead is sizable - it is not that I was able to release the grown up SAI.
There are plusses and minuses to having me on the team also.
So, if you think that you would know a working solution in case the SAI Seed were not released,
you are likely to be able to come up with right solution now either.
Thanks for your thoughts.
ES

Well, Ex, 

That comparison of the possible SEED's role in AI realm, to the Einstein's mc2 role in A-bomb realm, pretty correctly describes what I mean.

Do we desperately need SAI yesterday, like we needed nukes then -is the question. I think we do, but do not recognize it yet.

eS


@@ The right solution may be closer than you'd think @@ 
Hi, harvard, 
My judgement is the highest authority for myself. :) Seriously. 
Whatever mistakes I make this way, it is being the only way to get to new ideas. 
The people who wait to hear something on TV before trusting it - afraid of trusting themselves. Unfortunately, a lot are that way, and they attack anything new to justify their intellectual cowardness. 
Best, 
eS 

I suspect, that the main reason why many good things are not achievable, is hostile attitude toward real innovation, by the preudo-intellectual mass culture. 
There is a number of intellectuals in the "sea of driftwood". 
However, this number is declining exponentially :) 

es 

Eldras,

Your reaction seem to be natural, but in the pseudoscientific atmosphere of today is appears to be rare.

It shows although that you are not blinded by self-interest, as the project would be to an extent in competition to what you are doing.

However, I hope you will be able to use some of the Seed approach in your project, expecially integration with the delelopment enviromnment.

Best,

eS

The Turing test was innvented, when IQ measurement were not developed well. 

A computer with IQ = 100 is when and where one can say that human level AI is achieved. 

Ability to imitate human including human limitations, which would be needed to ace the Turing test, is not of much practical importance. 


eS 

 I would. 

Current ways are surely destructive. 

And the reason is ignorance of human beings and out institutions. 

SAI will make world better, not worse. 

Friendly? Certainly, it will be more friendly than people are to each other. 
"Friend of good, enemy of evil" is more appropriate description. 

eS 

IBM used to look at everything down their noses.
Now they are gearing about to steal the results of others' work.

In the case of SAI, machine learning - I have beaten them absolutely, without a single penny given to me by anybody.

Watch if they will give me any credit. Fat chance ;)

eS

The BL document is a project description.
It does not include the background, and the solutions envisioned.

The SAI Seed, as it is presented now, can be grown into SAI - however some ideas that must lead the growth are not spelled out, as the project was intended to be done by myself, not as one of a public domain, and the submission was for funding. Those must be recreated as part of SAI Seed growth.

Your comments could be interesting. Would you fund such project, if you had money for that?

eS

My approach and architecture is open in a sense that it is able to incorporate all meaningful ideas available.
It also provides means for willing participants to contribute to the development as much as they want and can.
In fact, it is necessary for the success.
The thing is that for it to happen the project must be in the implementation state. As of now, there is only seed, it is not germinating, not growing.

eS
 
Mo,
Do you suppose that Wiki or VC will be able to think someday?
SAI itegrates a lot of ideas, the best ones that can be found in the software and in the human thinking itself. 
Without understanding of that imperative, no one can hope to achieve much in AI.

eS

You are geting rude, as a substitude to ability make any intelligent point.
The SAI is not for fools, including the SAI Seed - sorry.
"SAI for dummies" would be an oximoron :)

eS

Ex,  what I have said, relates not to the SAI Seed being created.
S Cloud have said that for him to believe that it is a Seed, he needs to see an example of a SAI that has been grown from it. Example?
That is what I was commenting upon.

eS

@@@ the best memory minds in invention cant configure zillions of interactive sub-architectures @@@ 
Now you are talking the real thing ;)
This was The Problem, of doing necessary airtight integration, which had doomed attempts all along.
How to put all those pretty complicated by themselves pieces of puzzle together? 

The SAI Seed architecture that integrates the development process and its goal, is the way to solve this Problem too.

eS

PB
You are still confused about difference between AI Seed and Seed AI.
C++ has everything one needs, plus performance - this is why it is de facto standard for system level development.
As to specs, I was using general concepts as described in BL, and the interface level and behavior that I felt is sufficient for SAI development.
The developers grow SAI by adding new documents to it, some of them executable documents that process other documents as data 
 
eS


Mo,

What you and twixty are missing, is that the SAI Seed - IS EXPLAINED AND EXPRESSED in plain English in the documents that are present in it.
The code that is developed so far, is developed from that description, and facilitates farther development of more detailed documents and code.
This is the key feature, having an architecture that facilitates its own development.

eS
 
twixty,
congratulations, you have get correctly that side. 
A powerful document management system is necessary and essential part of SAI development and of its functioning.
Other side is the content of documents, and its manipulation. If that is also done correctly, voila, you've get it thinking :)

eS

[quote]You claim this is a development framework for AI...sorry, my assessment sees NOTHIING of the sort [/quote]
It is the framework and the initial step of SAI development, that is doomed to succeed at the end :)
In fact, there can be no successful alternative approach to SAI development.
Your tune will change, from "nothing" to "obvious", be assured of that.

eS

The thing is, that you are not aware of the way that your mind works.
If you would, you would recognize mind architecture in the SAI Seed - of course, in case you did run the BL application and read the content of the object documents in it.
The fact that you recognize common features with other important applications, must show you that good applications follow the mind patterns, and that SAI Seed is successful in that, smoothly integrating the features that have been already present in many applications - like they are integrated in the mind working.

eS


I've told it will end up with "obvious"! 
It is always the thing every discovery goes through: impossible, ignored, obvious.
You still don't understand although that the code of SAI Seed is only one part of the whole, that the document objects content is the other one, which is driving the code development, as code development enables content development.
Well, everything in its time ;)

eS

Well, I am out of business - the shape is not what it was, people are cheap and full of envy like I ask for money for myself..
The SAI Seed is out there, hopefully someone will understand the idea and will have more luck with support and funding :)
eS

PB,
what is especially attractive about C++ in context of SAI development, is that it is conceptually the most transparent while full expression of the idea of data and processing encapsulation in classes - which is important as SAI design goes.
Microsoft is pushing C# as a raket, and an attempt to compete with Java. Those are application level languages.

eS

True, I can't "talk to people". Too late to learn it either, especially the asking for money skills.
You ARE an open-minded person, but there are really so few of us around :)
 The ground protection is the name of the game, and me - I am too easy to push aside.

eS

Rover wheels live trail on the ground. 
Usually, the disturbed soil of trail is darker than surrounding soil.
The trail on the picture is much brighter than surrounding soil.

eS

Mischeviously, at some level I am pleased to be so much ahead of the curve :)
Wnich apparently is easy to explain, as nobody of the guys has Philosophy, Math, Physics and Software background necessary.
They even do not know that Intelligence is proportional to the logarithm of speed, not to the speed of processing. 
They assume Moore Law and expect that AGI will become SAI because of it. 
So they are wrong on the basics.

eS

[quote]once machine intelligence reaches a certain recursion point, it's accelerating intelligence will be very rapid and self-sustaining[/quote]
This is a myth.
You are intelligent, but you would be not much better of if given exact blueprint of your brain - you still would not know how to improve its design.
The artificial intelligence will have exactly the same problem.


Eldras,

Vinge has thrown in a number of ideas, but what is their effect after the Physical limitations of the Nature we exist in, are taken into account?

1. There will be no exponential growth of the computational power beyond next 30 yeard - Moore law will expire.

2. The augmentation of human with computer interfaces will only marginally improve intellinence performance over current human-computer systems.

3. There is no point in computers following the bio path of multiplication as a way of survival. Creation of robots that are wired to survive and multiply - it is possible, but would be an idiotic step that, even for humans, would be too stupid to take.

4. Ideally we would have a single or very few systems that are super-intelligent and sufficient to solve the problems that we and them could have.

5. The level of intelligence that it/they will achieve, will probably be a dramatic improvement over human intelligence - but no runaway intelligence, it is not in the cards. Self-mprovement by self-modification is nearly impossible, this is why the natural selection is the only game in town. Which takes a lot of time for generating and comparing of possibilities.

6. Intelligence is overrated as to what it can do. It can manipulate things in ways that are allowed by Nature, nothing more. If are thrown in the water with sufficient weight attached, you will be drown regardless how high is your IQ.

7. As you've said "intelligence is problem solving". It is being done by search for the solution, and the number of possibilities to check is growing exponentially with the size of a problem. This is why logarithm of the processing speed reflects ability of solving larger problems.

8. In the framework outlined, the security issue is an issue wheather the SAI will or will not develop malevolent- from human point of view - intentions. 
How is it solved?

8.1 The basic top goal that is programmed into it, must be not evil.

8.2 SAI must be developed correctly, with full ability to use its capabilities to achieve its goals, and to maintain consistancy of its goals.

8.3 SAI must be sufficiently powerful, so it is capable of achieving the goals it has/was set up to achieve. 

8.4 No attempts to artificially restrict SAI beyond its main goals are being done, as there is no way to predict results of a self-contradictory SAI. 

eS


discovery of new problems is part of the problem solving.

@@@ it is inherently ludicrous to suggest that you have SAI in your hip pocket @@@
PB,
You might have missed it, but I have always maintained that at least $50 mil must be added to the mix, to make this thing a functional SAI.
Even if I were mistaken by factor 10, it would require only half a billion.
Anyway, I was able to release a workable road map framework, and make the first step in the right direction - for free too, although it has taken years and years to develop.
It is not entirely my fault that I did not get the money needed for the thing to materialize in my hip pocket from the seed :)

eS
 
Here is what Extra Sense,  Eldras, and Prediction boy are saying on the issues discussed:
[quote]
1. There will be no exponential growth of the computational power beyond next 30 yeard - Moore law will expire. 
E: Says you. <== actually, everyone who has any understanding of hardware
PB:  by then we get an exponential s/w curve     <== since (1) is about hardware side, I take it as yes

yes wins on 1

2. The augmentation of human with computer interfaces will only marginally improve intellinence performance over current human-computer systems. 
E: who knows. 
PB: this is complex, but offhand i think i concur. 

yes wins on 2

3. There is no point in computers following the bio path of multiplication as a way of survival. Creation of robots that are wired to survive and multiply - it is possible, but would be an idiotic step that, even for humans, would be too stupid to take. 
E: you underestoimate your species; espcially thinikng most actions are not reactions. Most things unplanned. 
PB: complete concurrence here. plus, biological robots would an ethical nightmare. this wont happen. 

yes wins on 3

4. Ideally we would have a single or very few systems that are super-intelligent and sufficient to solve the problems that we and them could have. 
E: yes the first system to achive Superintelligence will neutralize ALL other attempts and have pretty absolute power.  i doint see any point in keepong humans alive if I can make any to order in simulations. 
<== I take it as yes; however, the simulation of humans is impossibility based on (1)
PB: lack of concurrence here. 'superintelligence' will be non-threatening, exceedingly useful, and eventually everyone who can afford one will want one 

yes wins on 4

5. The level of intelligence that it/they will achieve, will probably be a dramatic improvement over human intelligence - but no runaway intelligence, it is not in the cards. Self-mprovement by self-modification is nearly impossible, this is why the natural selection is the only game in town. Which takes a lot of time for generating and comparing of possibilities. 
E: Demonstrably untrue, and natural selection doesn't consider technology which is the human species self-improving eg longevity. 
PB: yes - in some ways. in other ways, humans will continue to have superior minds <== I agree to your acception
  I agree, there will no runaway intelligence loop.

yes wins on 5

6. Intelligence is overrated as to what it can do. It can manipulate things in ways that are allowed by Nature, nothing more. If thrown in the water with sufficient weight attached, you will be drown regardless how high is your IQ. 
E:  I await a rational arguemnt saying there is a limit to intelligence in an open universe. 
PB: good grounded point, es. 

yes wins on 6

7. As you've said "intelligence is problem solving". It is being done by search for the solution, and the number of possibilities to check is growing exponentially with the size of a problem. This is why logarithm of the processing speed reflects ability of solving larger problems. 
E:  The combinatorial explotion is overcome by having base goals in the system. 
    A probelm doesn't have to be discovered: a system acts to achieve its goals and when it halts, it acts to overcome the obstacle. ..
PB: i agree with the parts of this that i understand. <== I take it as yes

yes wins on 7

8.1 The basic top goal that is programmed into it, must be not evil. 
E: It makes me uneasy when people mention things like evil. 
Those are subjective terms and have been historically applied to dismiss rational argument. 
Also emergent goals cannot be predicted, which is where I part company with the Singukarity Institute. 
Hawling's method is to merge with superintelligence as it comes by augmentation or by close human/machine interfaces which has obvioulsy thought long about. 
PB: im going to start calling the idea of 'evil sai' as the 'thing that wouldnt die'. 
Evil would have to be programmed in, its too complex to just spontaneously appear. 

opinions differ on 8.1

8.2 SAI must be developed correctly, with full ability to use its capabilities to achieve its goals, and to maintain consistancy of its goals. 
E: That a great ideal aim, but technically how would that be architected for? <== SAI Seed is the answer
Superintelligence MEANS general intelligence, which mean generally and therefor absolutely smarter than mankind. 
PB: yes 

yes wins on 8.2

8.3 SAI must be sufficiently powerful, so it is capable of achieving the goals it has/was set up to achieve. 
E: yep weak A.I. 
PB: yes

yes wins on 8.3

8.4 No attempts to artificially restrict SAI beyond its main goals are being done, as there is no way to predict results of a self-contradictory SAI. 
E: Afraid you'll have to put that in English as my German is poor.
PB: not sure what this means.

needs clarification : 8.4
[/quote]

So, the issues 1-7, 8.2, 8.3 are settled in favor of SAI Seed approach !

The 8.2 and 8.4 must be further addresed,
but the SAI Seed wins better than 9:2, at least :)

eS

With the Intelligence, every component gets in the driving seat at the appropriate 'moment'.

On the SAI Seed level, main is providing the stable Infrastructure, which is going to sustain growth and functioning of SAI.

The importance and detailing of the issues changes over the development and functioning lifetime of SAI, so if an issue seems to you to be important, and is important - you still should not expect it to be of high priority all the time.

eS

@@@ if there's a way to reduce the effort that profoundly, to the seed, that's worth understanding further @@@ 

PB, 
In the heat of discussion, I had not recognize immediately, that this puts finger on a quite important issue. 

1. One has his own intelligence, that can be used as a prototype of the intelligence to be developed. 

2. One has a number of tasks already considered and of algorithms already developed that correspond to the operations, which are relevant to the intelligence of mind. 

3. One has sw development skills of mapping additionally identified intelligence tasks into algorithms, as needed. 

Assuming those 1,2,3 are available, what is needed is a framework and tool, that organize their application as a process, directed to the goal of producing intelligence , artificial intelligence that is. 

The SAI Seed is such framework and tool, it enables and directs such effort. 

eS 

@@ PB: it begins to become quite clear what pure rational ai will be like @@

Is "pure rational" SAI possible?

(a)The Rational, by itself, might be inefficient.

(b) Any thinking process involves conflict resolution - which hardly can it be done in a "pure rational" way.

(c) If we have the human thinking as a starting model, we are bound to implement irrational.

(d) Irrational is likely to arise from attempts to do things in "pure rational" way.

(e) Kindness is a feature that we value, but it is an irrational thing

A question to ponder :)

eS

It is interesting, how opposite is historical record of the Local and Global attempts of improvement.

The Local improvements in every area, from technology to art to social arrangemens, have often succeeded beyond wildest expectations.

The Global improvement attempts have been invariably a dismal failure.

This might be seen as manifestation of human brain limitations, as it has proven itself to be unequal to the Global tasks.


The SAI, is it going to change the situation with Global improvements? Or will it merely let us successfully implement Local improvements of larger scale than before?


eS

[quote](a)The Rational, by itself, might be inefficient.[/quote]

When you are relying on your gut feeling, you avoid a lot of reasoning, thus saving rational processing resources.

When mind's ability to do so is damaged, arises schisophrenia.

The problem of stopping of rational processing at the appropriate point, and initiating action, hard to solve rationally :)

eS

  
Subconsciousness of the SAI?
To what extent SAI would be modelled on the human mind solution in that? 
The computer based thinking possibly can have real multiprocessing/multithreading on the consciousness level, as opposed to human single threaded consciousness. 
That would make possible an introspection that directly brings subconscious things to the consciousness level. 

eS 

Sorry to disappoint, but you again lncorrectly assume infinite processing speed.
Also, the more powerful SAI is, the better it will accomplish its main goal - so it will never persue goals that contradict that main goal.

eS 

The more complex goal is, the more knowledge the SAI might need to understand it. However, the recognition ability is precondition. 
Hence, the SAI has to have a number of different powers, of ability to understand and of knowledge amount, to name main of them.




Sorry for response delayed, I did not visit this forum for awhile.

The site to look at is <a href="http://marslife.us/proof">The Proof</a>

As of today, most of the out of hand claims about impossibility of development of life on Mars, have had fallen.

Instead, the possibility of acceletated development of the Life on Mars 3 billon years ago become a mainstream opinion.

Which must force to reevaluate also the observations that show, that it has resulted in development of Civilization.

eS

{{
object versions, other objects' versions compatibility
object versions GUI object is displayed instead of the object GUI, with available versions as children.  
Then you are able to select a particular version. 
If it is  not compatible with some other object versions involved, you are being helped to make alternative selections

Objects and names
Association with notion object by notion name, means association to all objects using or implementing that notion


alternatives, variants, versions

services,  service providers,  rating of a provider with respect to service
self-claimed, by provider, of the chances and of time for success

Key to SAI is seamless integration of the algorithms and activity.
Part of it is IDE intarface integration of all development, planning, and control activity

Mind Map local view, from the right click. 

MDI ~ multiple view of the graph
One needs to be able to run MDIs over the same project.


}}

Hi, dbn,

your videos are great job, thanks.

I have a lot of new images, as a did not update the site for a while - since nobody apparently have been paying attention.

I did remove some images that were not sure thing, including the elephant. It is from Spirit pancam, sol 087, 2P134095338EFF2300P2368L7M1
If you can brighten the image, I think it would be impressive to have video of martian head at Spirit navcam,
2006-01-03/2N189580915EFFALBUP0695R0M1

Also, there would be intresting to make a movie like you do about Construction related things - I have a number or provoking images and could give you where they are.

Best,
es

page@cs.stanford.edu
brin@cs.stanford.edu

dear brian, 

The views about Mars past and about water on Mars, which you were promoting as scientific consensus - has been already rejected by "mainstream science".

With such dismal track record, you certainly entitled to your looking down upon those who has had been proven to be correct  :P 


eS

[quote]How fast do you think your project will move to a hard take off & how do you intend to contain it? [/quote]

Safety first :)

No "hard" take off will happen.

1. The resulting SAI is fully controlable all the time, while in development and/or functional, unless you intentionally disable such control - as the control is part of the project. So you can suspend or restrict SAI at will, if you want, at any moment.

2. The maximum intellectual power that the SAI will be allowed to achieve will be a parameter, so no matter how powerful algorithms it will create, it still will not be able to run them "full speed" and surpass that restriction.

I think for example, that a SAI run with IQ=10000, which is 100 human IQ, will be very useful yet safe.

eS


[quote]most of us don't really understand the different perspectives of the other. 
In fact we often don't have time nor respect for other disciplines/perspectives.[/quote] 

When you plan and do a software project, which SAI must evenually be in order to be successful, you need single integrated vision, not a mess of confused tendencies. So one can not expect to be able to integrate all prospectives, in particular as they are now full of nonsense too.

Well, call me biased, I see my SAI Seed as such workable integrated vision, to which  others will converge eventually. An obvious one, as some on this forum have complained.
:)
es

[quote]An integrated approach has to consider all oaths and every day to overview and modify directives. 
As new information, facts & discoveries come, you have to be able to change direction ]pretty instantly without losing momentum[/quote]

Flexibility and Stability of SAI project:

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with you on that, Eldras.

And what is important, the functioning of mind itself is and the functioning of SAI has to be Flexible and Stable either!

This is solved in my SAI Seed, and the solution is: Development IS its Functioning, only assisted with human developer's mind!

eS

The truth of the matter is, that machines can be made intelligent - so Kurzweil is correct on that, regardless how many mistakes lead him to the right conclusion. 

Yes he is weak in Philosophy, yes he does not understand Spirit, yes he has no clue about Physics. 

But he can write books that sell - so he wins. 

eS

black holes might be possible,  the mass of each hole would be less than 10^(-22) kg, about mass of 10000 protons.

We would not notice existence of such microhole if it passed through our body.

In fact, it comes as a possibility that Dark Matter consists of microscopic Black Holes, and that we will share the Nobel prize for this idea.

:)

eS


Fox News talks about four battleground states with huge Muslim populations: Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Florida. ...
So, to attract more Muslim votes,  Obama has to change his first name to Saddam.
It is now Saddam Hussein Obama for President!


#5  Obama bin Biden? That mate selection by Obama must have been a Freudian slip!

#4  Who is better liar, Obama or Clinton?
Is it a toss up: Obama lies when he smiles, Clinton lies when his lips move?

#3  Should Obama change his first name to Saddam, to get more Muslim votes in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Florida?

#2  Hands on knowledge of pork by Senator Obama is no joke.

#1  A pig without lipstick is still a pig.


Why Obama does not need a lipstick? 
Because he is Red!

In the news: Obama campaign rejects calling him a Red Pig as plagiarism.




An election topic: Can muslim be a pig? 

HAHAHA 

monkey, are you nor Ray himself, by any chance?

You like so much all anti-ray ramblings, no matter how stupid they are, and how they contradict each other.

Scott sayz that Kurzweil respects only laws of Nature as limitations, this one says he does not.

Ray mixes idiotic ideas like augmentation, nanotech, quantum computers - with the stuff that is real and is being smartly measured.
However, he is unable and unvilling to take those limitations into account :)

The critique that says "you have nice ideas, but you expect them come to fruition too soon", is no good on the substance. So what if it will take longer to get there?
The important questions to unswer are: what will happen and what will not happen.

eS
 
Black Humor: Barack Hussein Obama - President of The United States of A.

Top Five:

#5. The additional benefit will be death of Osama Bin Laden, from laughing his behind off.

#4. Hillary Clinton asks Supreme Court: Can I marry Obama?
Yes you can, but you must divorce Bill first.

#3. Why Jew voted for Barack Hussein Obama?
He has mistaken Obama Hussein Barack for Kadima Ehud Barack.

#2. Barack Hussein Obama, are you a Muslim?
It depends on what the meaning of are is, Your Honor.

#1. Barack Hussein Obama, what are the points that you disagree with Karl Marx?
I am sure, I take the Fifth. 


Top Five 2:

#5  Obama bin Biden? That mate selection by Obama must have been a Freudian slip!

#4  Who is better liar, Obama or Clinton?
Is it a toss up: Obama lies when he smiles, Clinton lies when his lips move?

#3  Should Obama change his first name to Saddam, to get more Muslim votes in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Florida?

#2  Hands on knowledge of pork by Senator Obama is no joke.

#1  A pig without lipstick is still a pig.



*  Why Obama does not need a lipstick? 
Because he is Red!

* Obama campaign rejects calling him a Red Pig as plagiarism.



Obama Mona Lisa smile 


- Barack Obama is speaking to the crowd while smiling to me, and I can see he is lying. 

But I feel that he is lying to all those other dufuses and he counts on me to support him - by pretending I believe him.

- yes, everyone feels that way. 


Since his agenda is to destroy America, what experience does he need?
It is like 911 Atta, not learning how to land aircraft.

Obama inexperienced? 
911 Atta did not need to learn how to land aircraft! 

Barack Obama inexperienced? 
Honsense, 911 Mohamed Atta did not need to learn how to land aircraft! 

;) 



1. The claim that entanglement follows from the QM is incorrect.
2. The experiment interpretation that involves entanglement is incorrect.

Brian,

I do not think you appreciate views re108,re109,re110.

The cover appears to be solid, and there is no way I can say that it is just microns thick.

Like the snow on Earth, it might come from cloud, which on Mars might be small - but small patch of snow still could be probuced.

The bottom line is, we still know very little, and the main reason is - mission is totally lacking follow up.

With just suiperficial observations, the things cannot be settled.

e 8) s

[QUOTE=MacGyver;36107]  we don't know how old it is.[/QUOTE] It must not matter. There has not been provided a direct confirmation of the strong projection postulate, so the article stands.
You could ask Kaku to comment on it from the theoretical Physics prospective, he might do it for you, or you can analyze it yourself.
As far as I can see, there is no chance that will ever be found a way to confirm strong projection postulate, having the history and jest of its discussion and the related experiments. 

eS

The guys have no clue as to what the contemporary software development is. They still are in the 20 years old paradigm, of waterfall methodology and pre object oriented design. 

What a dismal picture! 

eS 

So you are looking for trivial stuff :) 
What do you mean "DEMONSTRATE" 
You run the BL application, and you see the actual SAI Seed, that contains the description of its growth. This is what a seed is! 

eS 

Here what marvelous Agatha Christie had to say in "A Pocket Full of Rye", 1953:

[quote]Witchcraft, and charm, and marvelous happenings. Nowadays they're mostly limped together under the heading of Science.[/quote]

With all that accelerated return, the witchcraft since has fully replaced the content of Science.

All that entanglement, teleportation, quantum computing, nanotech, brain augmentation, uploading, ftl, and the rest of it - there is no place for anything real.

Thanks for warning, Lady Agatha - but it has happen anyway :)

eS

Here is link to the article
QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT DOES NOT HAPPEN! by Caroline H. Tompson.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.9906
That should do it! 
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=41C2EE562C1901AC621D5E951DF915FC?doi=10.1.1.34.9906&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Here is precizely what I mean, hopefully not too vague for you: 

Mechanical Devices of Nano Scale are ignorant and worthless idea. 




[QUOTE=MacGyver;36118]How do you explain the entanglement demonstrations?[/QUOTE] There is no such thing as real "entanglement demonstrations", as far as I know.
If one tries to analize any particular experiment done, he finds that the conditions of experiment are insufficient or are not sufficiently described to support conclusion about entanglement.

eS

So I was right, you are speaking from hearsay, because popular science books are hearsay.

I know that there is nothing to search for. It is you who are claiming that teleportation was successful.

Since you can not find a scientific reference to the correct work, which I say simply does not exist, you have lost.

That is all that there is to it.

eS


[QUOTE=MacGyver;36199]Our (rather your) purpose is to provide evidence to the contrary of entanglement...not provide sources simply saying the entanglement experiments are wrong.[/QUOTE]

Since the experiments available do not prove entanglement, there is no base in the Science for claim it exists.

Moreover, the proofs that claim entanglement are numerous and bogus - which shows that the people who make such claims are not trustworthy.

So what is the reason for public to believe that entanglement exists? None whatsoever. There is neither authority nor facts, sufficient to convince fair-minded person.

:couch2: 
eS

Eldras,

if you are right even in 10% of your understanding, which number is actually close to 30% in my opinion, - it seems that dramatic steps should be taken.

The situation is so unusual, that nobody can nevertheless force himself to face the reality.

Saving money at that is very much like locking down your door from thieves, on the Titanic that is sinking.

Something to learn about human nature here.

:)
eS


Rumors of Obama dumping Biden are incorrect

Correction:

Biden was reported to be ready to bail out, and let Hillary Clinton to be Obama's mate. He thinks that she would be a better choice.

This is absolutely, positively not true.

Actually, it is Obama who is bailing out, in order to let Hillary Clinton to be Biden's mate.  He thinks that she would be a better choice, and he is ready to do something about it. How nice!


Finally Dems are putting thir cows in a row.





SAI Business model: 

SAI IQ installation limits are the key. 
IQ limits will solve the safety problem. 

I assume, that SAIs of any needed IQ - will be possible to produce ater "Singulatity". 

So, after Singularity: 

The commodity that is being sold is IQ. 
You buy or lease SAI System for a price, commensurate with IQ. 

Lease of each 100 of IQ is $1000 a month, or $10000 a year. 
Buying price of 100 of IQ is $20000. 

So, you can buy 500 IQ for $100,000. 
Or, 5000 IQ for $1 million. 

:) 
eS 
50 Million? wow...

Is it a lot?
Consider trillions that can be saved with [b]better than human[/b] management of the public part of economy, for example.

Actually, I am starting taking orders for SAI today!

You buy or lease SAI System for a price, commensurate with IQ. 

Lease of each 100 of IQ is $1000 a month, or $10000 a year. 
Buying price of 100 of IQ is $20000. 

So, you can buy 500 IQ for $100,000. 
Or, 5000 IQ for $1 million. 

Or 250,000 IQ for $50 million  :)

These are introductory prices and they will grow overtime, so hurry up: the first come first served too.


eS 


[quote]How do you limit the intelligence of an AI that has access to its own code, can reprogram firewalls and routers, is capable of hijacking computers, and has access to the internet?[/quote] 

Obviously, you do not know, how rights are handled in contemporary Operating Systems.
From Unux point of view, SAI would be a program, that does not have root privileges. 
So,it will obey to whatever IQ level was set by the root.
 
What happens, if you hire someone who is smarter than you are? You still can fire him, or terminate SAI program, whichever be the case :)

[quote]How many $$$ of hardware will be required to house said AI? What's to say that I can't buy the cheap one and just give it more boxen to run on?[/quote]

Those things will be ironed out, to mutual satisfaction. There will be minimal hardware requirements for SAI, depending on IQ.

[quote]Who does it want to work with? What problems does it find interesting? Is is allowed to do pro bono work? Can it negotiate licensing/royalty deals on things it invents? Is it an employee, or an asset?[/quote] 

At the moment I understand that SAIs will be endoved with problem-solving oriented personality, and their self-maintenance will be limited to support and improvement of problem-solving abilities.


[quote]Regardless of whether or not there are any laws about it, slavery still has nasty unintended consequences.[/quote]

Relations between the owners/employer and SAI will not be burdensome to the SAI, as I do not see arising conflict of interests.

eS
50 mil is for development of SAI from SAI Seed. 
It follows from programming volume involved.
I've tried to get investors; also applied for govt funding.

[quote author=Maviarab link=topic=2248.msg9355#msg9355 date=1221520016]
Also, how are you measuring IQ? In terms of selling say 100 or 1000 etc. I take it 1000 IQ would be immeasurably better than just 100, but how so?[/quote]

I assume that initially normal human IQ tests will do the job.
Beyond 500, methodology of testing will be developped, which takes into account, for example, that size of problem that a system must be able to solve, is expected to grow as exp(IQ)

What value is a SAI system for you, is totally up to you.
Consider however, that you are not able to hire a human researcher with IQ more than 200 for all the money in the world - there is zero of such researchers.
So if you are going to use your SAI for research purposes, at least $200,000 a year will be your benefit

eS
 
The linear pricing by IQ might be incorrect too, it apparently underprices higher IQs.

The cost of development can inclease dramatically as IQ increases.

The value/benefit of IQ depends on IQ, and on the area it is used for. 

If the price correctly reflects development effort, only users that have benefit commensurate with development cost, will pay the price.

eS

I am not pretending at all. I am accepting orders for SAIs, which are certainly subject to my approval and to appropriate legal conditions.
I fully intend to deliver on those orders too.

I do not promise to increase your IQ. 
The SAI that I am talking about, is an intelligent computer program, that you own and can use for problem solving. 

Originally Posted by MacGyver  
Then I'd like the impossible IQ of 250,000 please. $50 million? Bah, pocket change... Prove to me you can provide this service and I'll pay up. 

Proof is in the pudding  
If the nature off your doubt is that the thing is, in your opinion, really impossible - just wait.
If you think it will take too long to achieve, you can still settle for 500 IQ or something.
If you think that I am not able, personally, to do it - deal with someone who you expect to deliver.
What else can I say, it is free country.

eS

What is life under communism like?

Ever've  wondered what will be life under communism like?
There will be no money, people will vote with their feet, and president will be community organizer!

[QUOTE=MacGyver;36548]I'm just curious as to how it works. Wouldn't [B]you[/B] want to know the mechanics of such a process before making a decision?[/QUOTE]
To know to some extent - yes. But not in the full detail that is needed in development process.
Here is the way to get necessary knowlege:
1. Download SAI Seed from [URL="http://marslife.us/extrascience/SAI_SEED/SAI_SEED.htm"]SAI Seed download page[/URL]
2. Install it
3. Run it, clicking icon BL
4. Read the documents that are included in the Seed.

eS

[QUOTE=MacGyver;36602]What happens when I install the seed?[/QUOTE]

What happens during installation?
The WinZip, that is supposed to be on your computer, extracts files to the volum C:/AI/UNZIPPED

What happens after installation?
You run the application  BL.exe from that directory.

What happens when you run the application?
You are presented with sort of SAI Explorer/Developer screen that is self-explanatory, so you can start learning about SAI Seed and/or growing it into Strong AI :) 
eS

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGyver  
Where does the money come into play? I was prepared to pay $50 million for the IQ of 250,000. 
So go ahead, place the order and pay for it. Precise conditions and legals will be easily negotiated - like time of delivery, way of IQ measurement, and so forth. 
The SAI Seed will be grown into SAI, which your order specify, and will be delivered to you. 

[QUOTE=MacGyver;36643]So let me get this straight..
 I grow it, I get a 250,000 IQ for free.
 You grow it, I have to pay $50 million to get a 250,000 IQ.[/QUOTE]

That is correct. 
Moreover, if you will be able to grow it, you can sell its versions, and make real money of it!

eS






[QUOTE=Chris D;36565]everyone just wants you to nail down some specifics.[/QUOTE]

Physics is an Art as well as a Science.
Logical argumentation can bring you just so far.
Real Physicist is like a musician, he learns through many years to [I]feel[/I] how logic and math are related to Physical reality.
I can not explain a tune to somebody who is deaf.
Other than that, read the EPR article, it shows that Projection Postulate contradicts locality.
If you want introduce back the nonlocality into Physics, you better come up with clean experiment that unambigously shows nonlocality.
No such experiment has happen in 80 years.
You still might have hopes, but understand that chances are nonexistant.

eS

[QUOTE=Chris D;36576]Dr. Kaku did mention that somebody transported ... You think he would make that up?[/QUOTE]
People make claims, other people mention those claims.
I challenge anybody, including Dr. Kaku, to point a to single experiment that have been performed correctly and fully described, in which I will not be able to find critical flaws, and which shows nonlocal Physical effect.
They can repeate thousand times that there were such experiments , but I guarantee that they will not be able to actually point to a single valid one.

eS

Quote:
I challenge anybody, including Dr. Kaku, to point a to single experiment that have been performed correctly and fully described, in which I will not be able to find critical flaws, and which shows nonlocal Physical effect  

Shall we go beyond empty words? 
Can you point to a correct valid experiment, that proves nonlocality?

If you do, just point to it.
If you don't. just admit it.

Is it that hard to do?

eS

[QUOTE=Bob C2;36876] the splitters are the very least of the suspects in the setup.[/QUOTE]

That is correct.
There is mix of theoretical assumptions and conclusions there, which is invalid, and invalidates the experiment as a proof of entaglement.

It is 'easy' to prove, that there is NO ADDITIONAL TO CLASSIC ONES correlations, which are being predicted by the QM. 

The proof is down this message.
You made me excercise the little gray cells, although.
 
eS

[SIZE="4"]PROOF[/SIZE]

CLASSIC CORRELATIONS CALCULATION

The Classic picture is : 
particle A is in state a1 [B][I]and[/I][/B]  particle B is in state b1 [B][I]or[/I][/B]
particle A is in state a2 [B][I]and[/I][/B]  particle B is in state b2

The general f1 f2 classic Correlation is: 

f1(a1)*f2(b1) + f1(a2)*f2(b2)  

-----------------
QUANTUM CORRELATIONS CALCULATION

The Quantum picture is:

PSI(s1,s2) = PSIa(a1,s1)*PSIb(b1,s2) + PSIa(a2,s1)*PSIb(b2,s2)

where PSIa(a,s) = DEBTA(a,s) ;   PSIb(b,s) = DEBTA(b,s) ;
  
DEBTA(x,y) = 0 if x is not equal y
DEBTA(x,y) = 1 if x is equal y

The general f1 f2 quantum Correlation is:

< f1 f2 > = < PSI(s1,s2) | f1(s1)*f2(s2) | PSI(s1,s2) > = 
<f1(a1)>*<f2(b1)> + <f1(a2)>*<f2(b2)>

where <f(x)> = < PSIu(x) | f | PSIu(x) >
-----------------
COMPARISON

Now, compare Classic and Quantum correlations
Classic:     f1(a1)*f2(b1) + f1(a2)*f2(b2)  
Quantum  <f1(a1)>*<f2(b1)> + <f1(a2)>*<f2(b2)>

It is the same thing.
So, there are no specific Quantum Correlations, and Quantum Entanglement is nothing but a Myth.

 :couch2:

http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/QM/cat.html <-- Schrodinger on knowlege entanglement
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.9906 <--  article QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT DOES NOT HAPPEN! by Caroline H. Tompson.

That 

Physics is quite involved science, it is like Philosophy, Math and Art together. And more.
I do not have my definition for entanglement, as there is no such thing to define.
People are talking of effect that was considered in EPR and rejected. Now, fools've turned their argument around, as a justification or proof of the "effect", to get money for Quantum Computing and the rest of crap.
No matter how a pair of particles was created and what was their history, after they were separated and their interaction is not there anymore - measurement on one of them does not change the state of another one.
Only our knowledge about the state of other particle changes in some cases.
Schredinger was talking about knowledge.

In Classical Mechanics a measurement changes knowledge but do not change the state.
In Quantum Mechanics a measurement changes knowledge and usually changes the state also.

In Quantum Mechanics measurements produce  some averages.
The phase of Psi is "hidden variable", is you like.

eS

Suppose I have a pi meson with spin-0 decay into an electron and a positron. Since the total angular momentum is zero and both particles have intrinsic spin = 1/2, I know they must be in the singlet configuration, which is the only state that can combine two spin 1/2 particles and produce a total spin 0 state.
Now suppose I measure the spin of the electron in some direction v, and it comes out +1/2. Then I know that I ever go and measure the positron's spin in the same direction it will come out -1/2. This is just conservation of angular momentum.
----------
Actually, this is where your mistakes start. 
1. The spins measured are +1/2 and/or -1/2.
2. If the direction v is different from the particles' spin direction, then measurement produces projection, so the spin measured has probabilities to come out +1/2 or -1/2.
So your measured value can be different in each of series of identical experiments with identical PSI/state
3. If/when you make second measurement (on the positron), an another projection happens, and the chances for the measured value being 1/2 or -1/2, must be calculated using classical distribution probabilities for the direction of spin of the first particle as based on the result of the first mesurement, and the quantum probabilities that are opposite to those of the first experiment(only because of the symmetry of the whole setup).
This is the picture that is prescribed by QM.
So it is more complicated than the nitwits suggest, and conclusion is:
result of the first experiment has no influence whatsoever on the chances of result of the second experiment, beyond the classical hypotheses reevaluation as described by Bayes. 

eS

QM consists of 
Psi function-operators framework, 
Schrodinger equation of motion  ih d/dt Psi = H Psi,
and Prescriptions how to connect this staff with the Classic Mechanics:
     for evaluation of probabilities and averages
     for substitution of   ih d/dx  for momentum in the expressions
     for obtaining of Quantum Hamiltonian from the classic one through such substitution 



++++
I agree that trained and experienced SAI is more valuable, than raw IQ.
Separate companies could emerge, that will buy raw SAIs from me, and train them for particular roles.
They will charge the customer a lot more than my prices, so it will be profitable thing to do.

eS
 
Palin's yahoo account was hacked? Think again!
Most likely password was lifted by somebody in yahoo!
Miss Marple investigates:

If Sarah Palin's account was hacked from outside, by outsider(s), then they can hack any yahoo email account.
Yahoo mast be held responsible in that case too.

Moreover, if it were possible to hack into yahoo email account, hackers would do it routinely, so there would be a lot of complaints like that. 
Moreover, if it were possible in general to hack into  email account, hackers would do it routinely, so there would be a lot of complaints like that.

Since there is generally no hacking of email accounts,
 YAHOO IS THE MAIN SUSPECT

es

Palin's email password was sold, not hacked!

Palin's yahoo account was hacked? Think again!
Most likely password was lifted by somebody in yahoo, bought up by media or democrats. 
Even the media reports assume that it was done for a political purpose.
In the position to do this on demand is only yahoo staff.
Since there is generally no hacking of email accounts, YAHOO IS THE MAIN SUSPECT


 Danger of the Obedient SAI
  If SAI is not endoved with the moral sense, just the rational calculations abilities - there is a danger. 
Say some owner gives SAI evil order. Without moral sense, obedient SAI might easily comply. 
So, is it right to release obedient SAI ? 

eS 


So, is it right to release obedient SAI ? 
I would say no. 
First, I think that there is the danger of conflicting orders, as Arthur C. Clarke illustrated so deftly in 2001. 
Second, in the face of horrible atrocities throughout history, how many of the tools afterwards tried to justify their actions by saying, 
"I was just doing my job." 
I definitely agree that we must build a moral center into the goal system of any SAI/AGI. The real trick is deciding what that is. 
And it brings up the issue of selling said moral, independent entity as a commodity. ;-)

moekando

However, SAIs with IQ less than some limit, say 300, can be used responsively and beneficially in obedient, slave mode, - in my current opinion.
[quote]it brings up the issue of selling said moral, independent entity as a commodity.[/quote]
I agree that it is no good, and in fact is impossible to maintain, with the commodity being smarter and more capable than owner.
To manage relations with free SAIs and between them, we need laws that are mutualy beneficial to the sides.
But, the reality is that there is no money and support for right way of doing things, and we are going to end up with obedient SAIs.

eS
    

Do you like being a butt of the jokes?
Sure, if  I like Joke.

Do you enjoy being the butt of jokes?
Yes I do, although some of them are really pain in the ass!

Is education overrated?
You often hear that education is overrated, but now we have the proof:
educated people are more likely to vote for Obama, or to believe in Marxism!

Anything to get elected!
Obama to change his middle name from Hussein to Ahmadinejad
Not that name Hussein does not sound presidential, but it might be a smart move to improve BarackObama foreign policy credentials

The rumor has it that Obama was arrested by Homeland Security.
Shortly he was released, as they could not figure out with what nefarious allegiance to charge the smart donkey: to the islamists, or to the communists!

The rumors that Obama was arrested by Homeland Security are false! 
Apparently they still cannot figure out with which nefarious allegiance to charge the smart donkey: to the islamists, or to the communists.

The most important current problem is, nobody is facing the reality, and everyone are talking and fretting about $700 billion instead.
If you help with only 20% of real need, you are going to extend the agony, not to restore health.
As to the root problem underlying this malaise, it is cultural and moral decay, fed by the media and such that are controlled by "democrats" - mostly anti-christian halfwits.
 
eS

JJ,

Banks, Financial system, Credit, are needed as long as money are used. 
Money are needed, as long as economy is practiced. 
Economy is needed, as long as production and consumption are being balanced.

Those are power tools, but their power is limited, and they need some extra money to operate.

The Credit is a dangerous tool, as it can be extended unwisely to demage balance between production and consumption. 
If you are not productive enough or overconsuming, you are declining regardless how well you manage the tools and use tools, or how good the tools are.  
Eventually you can not afford the tools also.

Keeping the inflation in check as a method of keeping Credit in shape, apparently does not do the balancing trick - as it does not prevent overconsumption through imprudent borrowing. 

The bottom line is that when money are becoming less productive, at some point Credit can not anymore sufficiently boost the productivity of society. 

With baby boomers retiring, the society productivity will decline even more...

So, what is the way to fix credit if we do not want to allow bank failures or inflation?
I would say, the best chance is to split huge banks, and let them fall as they may and interest rates grow as they may.

Bailing out does not seem to be the way to fix broken self-regulation in a long run.

Just some thoughts :)

eS

The root of the problem is, apparently the wrong way that Federal Reserve decides, what to do with interest rates.
They assume that it is safe to lower interest rates as long as core inflation is low.
It is not the case, as it allows banks to lend with low interest rates that do not reflect risks of lending.


Roots of financial crisis
1. Too easy money - with low interest rates "justified" by absence of "core inflation"( withour food and fuel and shelter included.) 
It is the most wrong way of accounting, as in fact all the values are defined by the food, fuel, and shelter, needed to produce them. 
2. Wishful/fraudulend ways of lending, as overestimating of the ability to repay is used to make fast money now and wait for consequences later, after us. 
In fact, this was the root cause of self-destruction of socialist economies, only on lower level of products' values estimates, as prices were assigned without actual market arbitership. 
CONCLUSION: 
Unless the real inflation will be taken properly into account, the capitalist economy will collapse like socialist economies did. 

eS 

doojie

This is crisis of credit.

Who creates the money is important, but correct understanding of/by what and why that "who" is doing what he is doing, is important for us and for him.

We've run into problems because the credit was too lax inside US. 
The crisis might be a prelude to the similar international problems, as international credit toward US was too lax, allowing for huge trade deficits.

Marx is not an authority whatsoever in economy matters, he was nothing but a political hack.

Easy credit allowed for some good things to happen, but now it has become a nuisance.
Not ignoring the housing, food, and shelter, whould be a critical step in the right direction.

Best,

eS

Obama is a dirty joke, indicating the deep decay of judgement.
If Jews will continue to support him, they have nobody but themselves to blame for their coming destruction in his hands.

eS

[quote]this will show up as rising prices in about 1 - 2 years[/quote]

So, would not you continue the story, that the FED investors will actually lose money if inflation is taken into account.
So, they will have to make FR to create yet more money... ad finitum.
So, eventually they will run out of paper for printing money, or the paper will cost more than its money denomination?

:)
[QUOTE=Carcano;2026657]Its nowhere remotely close to 400%. [/QUOTE]

Your picture convinces me even more, that my estimate is correct. But even if we would take it at the face value,
$350 billon must be written off.

But, there is no housing shortage, so the selling price will be lower than cost of building, so you will have to write off even more, and wait for market to recover even longer.

The bubbles flood in economy, is result of too cheap credit.

Which is result of rates manipulation by FED.
Which are caused by its private company status.

Treasury could do all the useful part of FED activity much better, keeping interest rates practically unchanged.

eS

Even deeper problem underlines the current crisis, than the mismanagement of interest rates.

One can make a case, that equally applied interest rates simply can not accomplish the task of regulating economy. 

Demand that is driving supply, does not always reflect needs, especially future needs. That results in bubble by bubble trajectory.

Human regulation in not capable of being more precise although.

Different entities and different industries probably must have different interest rates applied. 

The SAI would allow that, dramatically improving efficiency of economy regulation.

However, there is no demand for SAI now - although every major bank could easily finance its development. Which is an example of failure of simple demand-supply scheme to identify future need, and to finance it accordingly.

The choice is really simple: a SAI managed economy or a permanent bubble mess.

eS
Absolutely free market is inefficient. There must be some strategic thinking involved - this is why absolutely free market never existed. 

----bankhuptcy, not bailout, is the right answer-----
Before this can work, you must stop interest rates meddling by Federal Reserve
The low intererst rates make the over-crediting profitable.
Bankrupcy comes too late to prevent loans.
eS

Lost? You might be awaken to the reality.

We all've lost at least $700 0000 000 000, whether we pass it as a bill or not.
And it is just tip of the iceberg.
And we will continue the business of usual, with similar losses.
But, someone will or already had, get what we have lost. 

Market will not correct itself, as long as interest rates are meddled with by fed.
The correction that could solve the problem, would be elimination of fed. Will they support it?

eS

The idea of CDS is mutual insurance, and I would guess, banks or groups of them, buy it from each other. 
What you do this way, you reduce local risk but INCREASE global risk of domino effect or chain reaction. 
It is quasi-socialist idea of spreading the risk around. It is counter productive. It encourages irresponcible beahior too. You need to allow local failures, in order to keep economy healthy. 
Your solution is that insurance will only collect premiums, and everybody will be ok. 
Why to buy insurance then? 
Free market can work only when stimulus is not self-defeating. 
If they want to create banking insurance beyond FDIC, let them do it. 
The mutual insurance is a swindle. 

eS 

The swaps/CDS, which represent an attempt to mutually insure Banks against risky loans, turn local instability into global one.
No matter what models you use, this fact guaranties permanent severe global danger to the markets and banks.
The CDS must be done with, declared NULL AND VOID, if we want to avoid total disaster of permanent bailout.

Knifes, if used for what they are supposed to be used for, let you to cut food and such, and produce no bad side-effects.
The CDS, if used according to the specification, in addition to whatever they are supposed to be used for - inevitably increase global risks and shift financial risk responsibility from lenders to the public.
For commerse to exists, the Fraud must be illegal.
This is what I suggest to do.
The CDS must be declared NULL AND VOID, as any fraud must.

Professor Extra Sense :)


Why banks do not lend?
They have been relying on CDS debt swaps as an insurance that had let them lend at historical rates and risks.
CDS are really toxic now.
So, they would need to increase the interest accordingly, and be more prudent with customer credit apprisal.
So, the lending is bound to be less available and more expensive, fewer lenders will take risks still uncertain. How much expensive?
Are the customers prepared to pay more, enough to make up for this change?
FED interest rate cuts cannot cover the gap, apparently.

Dear Steven, 
Hear me out.
You are writing:  better to have the government bail out the CDS market,
It is impossible, since CDS marlet is hundred times larger than GDP.
Instead, all CDS must be voided. 
They do not provide the protection they claim.
Voiding them is necessary for any meaningful "bailout".
It is practically painless and efficient step.
The digging that we need a break from, is lowering interest rates while misallocating the risks/

Alex
AnalitiK: good rules that discourage people to take excessive risk."
Face the fact, that only such rule possible, is for excessive risk to costs fast for the riskier.
CDS is doing quite opposite, protecting the riskier, and shifting the risk to the global economy.
This is an "instrument" of eventual self-destruction.
The current crisis cannot be fixed by lowering interest rates.
We are in a vicious loop, thanks to CDS proliferation and misunderstanding of the problem.
By the way, I am QUANT, a good Physicist that Shreve is talking about.
So what is your reason for disagreeing, but wishful thinking?

es :)
The CDS, if used according to the specification, in addition to whatever they are supposed to be used for - inevitably increase global risks and shift financial risk responsibility from lenders to the public.
Professor Shreve is INCORRECT.

The swaps/CDS, which represent an attempt to mutually insure Banks against risky loans, turn local instability into global one.
No matter what models you use, this fact guaranties permanent severe global danger to the markets and banks.
The CDS must be done with, declared NULL AND VOID, if we want to avoid total disaster of permanent bailout.

Professor Extra Sense :)

Wosat makes sense, but more specifically - "corrective" actions of government are counter-productive.
Lowering FED interest rates, and the CDS mountain bailout, worsen the risk allocation situation, and so deepen the crisis
CDS, credit default insurance, must be declared null and void.
Interest rates must be held stable at average inflation rate.
Only than the bailouts would be effective, as market self-regulation would be restored.
What is being done instead, is socialist external market regulation, which is known to never work.

[QUOTE=Bob C2;37475]Does that mean you have a classical physics explanation for the double-slit experiment? [/QUOTE]
Do not make up a straw man.
The Quantum Physics provides the explanation, which is a bit more involved than the classical picture, which does not provide an explanation.
Nothing "weird" is there about the Quantum explanation although. It does not imply the weird garbage like entanglement either, the garbage that the nitwits claim.

eS
 
Even if computers were intelligent and accelerated infinitely, they will improve themselves pretty slowly, as the more they are improved the more complex they are, and the more compex it the task of self-improvement. 

eS 
[quote]Large computer networks (and their associated users) may "wake up" as a superhumanly intelligent entity[/quote]
This is a bogus idea. Contemporary supercomputer IS a network by itself, and a very efficient one. 
Internet is relatively slow and inefficient network, which does have huge disadvantages compared to supercomputer with respect to superintelligence.
Nothing intelligent will "wake up" by itself, it must be created intentionally.

eS

@@@ Will take longer @@@ 
"Will take longer" is the lamest thing to say. 
Consequenses of achieving human level intelligence are ridiculously, singularily overblown by singularists. 
If their predictions up to the point of SAI arrival are reasonable, and grounded in measurable experience, the singularity supposedly triggered by that is pure fantasy, contradicting known and well established knowlege. 

eS 

People who talk about "singularity", including Ray K., do not understand that there is a difference between increasing the SPEED of thinking, and increasing PRODUCTIVITY of thinking.
The productivity is approximately logarithm of the speed, logarithm being reverse function of exponent.
So, when "speed" is increasing EXPONENTIALLY, the "productivity" is increasing LINEARLY.
So, if you compare the whole mankind (10^10 humans) thinking productivity,  it is only additional 10 to the single person thinking productivity of 16 or so.
The whole mankind is only 40% smarter than a single person !!!!
So, a computer with speed 10^26, will be only 40% smarter than a single human being !!!!
And if Moore law would continue( 2 fold increase every 1.8 years), to get to that point will take 50 years or so. The supercomputer then will be only 40% smarter than a single human being.
Now, would you like to buy a bridge?

:)
eS
This reminded me certain story that I was told years ago by fellow Physics student, story about a physicist aka mental patient:

he was working on the theory of space-time, and you could converse with him nicely about it, and he would prove pretty logically that our space has 20 dimentions. Then he would say "If it were just one dimention more, we would have 21" - and become silent.

The nanobot similarily is the key word - when anyone accepts them, you know that that anyone is essentially nuts.

What did priest say?

:)
eS




[quote]those in power have persisted in pursuing a course that led to disaster[/quote]
So, who is in power?
The leading economist Milton Friedman said that fed as we know it, must be abolished.
The only real reason to be so drastic, is that fed is a deal between politicians and bankers, which facilitates their mutual support and enrichment at the expense of public.
Fed provides important machinery for money regulation, so it would be better to keep fed in place, but keep fed interest rates steady and equal to the inflation rate.

eS
You remember what has happen to the Troy, when it accepted a gift of horse from its enemies, the Trojan Horse.
The Troy was destroyed. Even its ruins cannot be found.
Obama is the Trojan Horse of the enemies of America.
Are we going to eccept him and celebrate, as the Trojans did?

ES
I was not impressed at all. 

The inflation emphasis seems to be misguided. 
The wage inflation makes up for this. 
Only thing that really suffers is savings. 
It does not matter HOW moneys are created. 
As long as there is appropriate amount of them, for the operating expenses and investment in the future operation, the situation is OK. 
Too easy money encourage unproductive expanses, 
while too expansive money curtail investment. 

The talk about technology making money absolete, is an ignorant babbling. 

eS 

Have not I been saying, that ours is age of pseudoscience, including apparently the pseudoeconomics?

Surely they've get some multiworld nut to design financial instruments, algorithms.

Plus they are making money on the bailout, by cooking the papers.

Plus, if you have lost the credibility, it is forever - talking about recovery of credit system.

Plus 60 trillion of fraudulent bank swaps, and who knows how much more of fraudulent international Central Bank swaps.

Banking system must be automated using SAI, you can not trust greedy human race with your money.

eS

Severe misallocation of capital resources has had occured - primarily caused by 
the Federal Reserve's decision to keep interest rates artificially low to prevent the economy 
from going into recession in 1996, 2001, 2003 and 2008. 
The easy money turned into nonproductive and risky investments, 
so that the produced assets have inflated paper value.
 

Bailout will not work.

Severe misallocation of capital resources has had occured - primarily caused by 
the Federal Reserve's decision to keep interest rates artificially low to prevent the economy 
from going into recession in 1996, 2001, 2003 and 2008. 
The easy money turned into nonproductive and risky investments, 
so that the produced assets have inflated paper value.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77802

The actions that are being done, like worldwide  additional lowering of the interest rates, continue andding to the problem, instead of fixing it.

CDS, credit defult swaps mutual insurance, must be declared NULL AND VOID.

Banks must be let go bancrupt, THEN nationalized.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/29/miron.bailout/

Interest rates must be fixed at inflation rates, 3% at US.

eS

What I am saying, is that certain steps would be PRACTICALLY beneficial at the given stage.

You want to have REALLY PRIVATE banks, to insulate the risks.
However, the Central Bank that is creating actual money, by setting basic interest rates, can not be private, as it inevitably ends up as a sink for all risks.

So, the banks that fail may be nationalized, and then their parts reconstituted as REALLY PRIVATE banks, that are responsible for risks that they take.

eS




http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77802
 
12% . So what? 

Whites are seemd to be determined to surrender their rights to black dictatorship.

After power is in the hands of BRAZI, black race socialists , there will be no elections anymore.

If needed, BRAZI government will take care of the numbers too, with contemporary weapons it will be easy to clean up land of those 78% inferior races.

And Jews will be first in line for that. Remamber, Obama supporters prominently include apparently antisemitic Buchanan and Farrakhan.

So, the elections, percentages will be irrelevant, they will be disposed of. 

Why bother? Fuhrer Obama will take care of us.